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Occams' Protocol (OP) questions

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Occams' Protocol (OP) questions

Postby bobrandklev » May 2nd, 2011, 8:30 pm


I'm a month into SCD and today was my first OP Workout A.
Compared to workouts of the past, it seemed like "not enough" but I was drained!

First question: I added bent rows and drag curls to the end of Workout A for a total of 4 exercises. I'm planning to add kettlebells to Workout B per the suggestion in the book.. yes no?

Second: In one of the forums there was a link to Tim's book corrections/changes. I thought is stated a little brown rice was ok AFTER workout UNLESS you had a higher body fat like 25% or greater. The message was to skip the rice even after the workout to help burn fat... Agree or not? Should I be eating rice after workouts when I'm currently at 34% body fat? I understand I'll sacrifice some muscle growth by sticking to SCD but a little muscle gain is great while large fat loss is the goal right now!

Third: The weather is finally improving so I took my bike out for a three mile ride tonight and now I'm wondering is this too much or not something to do after Workout A day?

After reading a lot of the forums I see the "catch 22" between losing fat and gaining muscle. I also see that be compounded if you are over say 25% body fat vs less.

Being at 34% body fat I'm not sure I want to add milk, rice and more to my diet now but I'll wait to hear what others say. :)
5-11, 45 y/o male
July 2010: 235lbs
July 2011: 212lbs
Loss to date: 25lbs
4.5 inches from belly


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Re: Occams' Protocol (OP) questions

Postby justhamade » May 26th, 2011, 1:16 am


This problem comes up way more than it should. I actually just wrote a quick post about it on my blog http://www.myfourhourbodydiary.com/2011 ... our-goals/

1. No rice
2. No milk
3. If you are 34% BF you should not be doing occam's

Occam's is a bulking/bodybuilding workout and is probably one of the weakest parts of the book. Most people recommend that you are 10%BF or less before starting any bulking program.

There is an answer to your catch 22. High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) with resistance. This is the method I have been using and had great results with 10-15 minute workouts. Kettlebells/Crossfit are good for this although I find crossfit too random. The MCT http://www.maxcapacitytraining.com/ program I link to in my blog post is a good one and I am actually going to start doing that soon.

The best fast loss workout in the book is in the endurance chapter IMO.

Train for athleticism eat for fat loss. This is going to be my new slogan.
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Re: Occams' Protocol (OP) questions

Postby Twitch » May 26th, 2011, 12:50 pm


Can you be more specific about which workouts. I see no chapter called 'endurance'. Are you speaking of "Running Faster and Farther"?
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Re: Occams' Protocol (OP) questions

Postby bobrandklev » May 27th, 2011, 8:44 am


@justhamade
3. If you are 34% BF you should not be doing occam's


I appreciate you being so to the point on this but I'm a few weeks into OP and using SCD and it's going very well.

My scale weight has been steady so I'm not losing lbs but my measurements are excellent. My belly measurements (viseral fat-SAD measurements) are dropping every week, my arms and chest are growing and my clothes are fitting better.

Per my other post today I'm very sore but the workouts are going well.

I will keep you comments in mind as there's no 100% perfect answer for everyone and if I feel I'm at a stalling point I'll come back to your suggestions.

My other comment/suggestion is before anyone tries OP and SCD together get a lot of body measurements recorded. I measure belly, waist, hips, shoulders in addition to what Tim suggests. Also for those with Visceral fat be sure to measure your SAD!

If you've been dropping lbs on the scale and it stops and you feel you've hit a plateau the measurements will help you confirm if you are still losing/gaining and NOT on a plateau.

I know is assumed most of the time you diet to lose weight but you can maintain your weight, gain muscle and lose fat all at the same time... just have measurements to back it up!
5-11, 45 y/o male
July 2010: 235lbs
July 2011: 212lbs
Loss to date: 25lbs
4.5 inches from belly


Need a vacation? Make a living.. living! http://GettingAnswers.com/4hb
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Re: Occams' Protocol (OP) questions

Postby Twitch » May 27th, 2011, 11:47 am


I'm with Bobrandklev! I have been stalled out for about 5 weeks now, I started OP workouts (A and B Cycles) in addition to cardio /Kettlebell swings and finally I've started movement again. (-4 lb since last weigh in)

I like the idea of doing some interval/Tabata type training though and am looking into it as a replacement for typical cardio. Especially since you can, like Mr. Ferris recommends, do more with less.
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Re: Occams' Protocol (OP) questions

Postby Blayne » May 27th, 2011, 9:39 pm


justhamade wrote:1. No rice
2. No milk
3. If you are 34% BF you should not be doing occam's

Occam's is a bulking/bodybuilding workout and is probably one of the weakest parts of the book. Most people recommend that you are 10%BF or less before starting any bulking program.


No offense, but that's one of the most absurd things I've heard in a while. The notion that you should not be trying to gain lean mass while losing bodyfat is completely backwards. By gaining muscle, your body will be able to burn through calories even faster, and allow you to lose weight at a faster pace.

If you are supposed to be at 10% BF before trying to do any sort of "bulking" program, that would mean that 75% of the guys in the gym shouldn't be doing strength training programs.

This also goes against the philosophy of nearly every bodybuilder out there, where lean mass gains come before cutting phases. (Yes, I realize a bodybuilder isn't starting at 30%+ BF, but they still follow the cycle of building mass first, then cutting.)
6-1, 41 y/o male
SCD Jan 2-Feb 13 '11 (BW: ~193)
Modified SCD start Feb 13 '11(BW: ~185)
Stats:
7/2/11: 179lb, 10.3% BF (based on hydrostatic test)
10/20/11: 185lb, ~10.5% BF
Dec '12: 194lb, ~11-12% BF (bulking phase)
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Re: Occams' Protocol (OP) questions

Postby Blayne » May 27th, 2011, 9:51 pm


bobrandklev wrote:Second: In one of the forums there was a link to Tim's book corrections/changes. I thought is stated a little brown rice was ok AFTER workout UNLESS you had a higher body fat like 25% or greater. The message was to skip the rice even after the workout to help burn fat... Agree or not? Should I be eating rice after workouts when I'm currently at 34% body fat? I understand I'll sacrifice some muscle growth by sticking to SCD but a little muscle gain is great while large fat loss is the goal right now!

After reading a lot of the forums I see the "catch 22" between losing fat and gaining muscle. I also see that be compounded if you are over say 25% body fat vs less.

Being at 34% body fat I'm not sure I want to add milk, rice and more to my diet now but I'll wait to hear what others say. :)


If fat loss is your primary goal, I would either skip adding the milk/rice or at least keep it to a minimum and keep it timed to just after your workouts, where it will help facilitate protein uptake into your muscles (and when the insulin spike isn't as big of a concern relative to fat loss).

You may not be taking in enough nutrients to optimize muscle gains, but you'll still be able to make gains.
6-1, 41 y/o male
SCD Jan 2-Feb 13 '11 (BW: ~193)
Modified SCD start Feb 13 '11(BW: ~185)
Stats:
7/2/11: 179lb, 10.3% BF (based on hydrostatic test)
10/20/11: 185lb, ~10.5% BF
Dec '12: 194lb, ~11-12% BF (bulking phase)
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Re: Occams' Protocol (OP) questions

Postby bobrandklev » May 28th, 2011, 8:23 am


No offense, but that's one of the most absurd things I've heard in a while
Thanks Blayne for putting it that way!

I was also shocked when I read it and almost posted a reply too quickly :-)

You have confirmed my thoughts and I'll keep moving forward as I have been.
5-11, 45 y/o male
July 2010: 235lbs
July 2011: 212lbs
Loss to date: 25lbs
4.5 inches from belly


Need a vacation? Make a living.. living! http://GettingAnswers.com/4hb
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Location: Iowa

Re: Occams' Protocol (OP) questions

Postby justhamade » May 30th, 2011, 11:28 am


Twitch wrote:Can you be more specific about which workouts. I see no chapter called 'endurance'. Are you speaking of "Running Faster and Farther"?


Sorry I did not have the book handy and was going off memory. In the table of contents it is Ultraendurance I: Going from 5K to 50K in 12 Weeks—Phase I and Ultraendurance II: Going from 5K to 50K in 12 Weeks—Phase II

It is a CrossFit program.
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Re: Occams' Protocol (OP) questions

Postby justhamade » May 30th, 2011, 11:50 am


Blayne wrote:
justhamade wrote:1. No rice
2. No milk
3. If you are 34% BF you should not be doing occam's

Occam's is a bulking/bodybuilding workout and is probably one of the weakest parts of the book. Most people recommend that you are 10%BF or less before starting any bulking program.


No offense, but that's one of the most absurd things I've heard in a while. The notion that you should not be trying to gain lean mass while losing bodyfat is completely backwards. By gaining muscle, your body will be able to burn through calories even faster, and allow you to lose weight at a faster pace.

If you are supposed to be at 10% BF before trying to do any sort of "bulking" program, that would mean that 75% of the guys in the gym shouldn't be doing strength training programs.

This also goes against the philosophy of nearly every bodybuilder out there, where lean mass gains come before cutting phases. (Yes, I realize a bodybuilder isn't starting at 30%+ BF, but they still follow the cycle of building mass first, then cutting.)


No offense taken, I was writing that from my iPhone so I was kinda lazy and didn't write it very well. But you didn't get the whole point. My point was you SHOULD be trying to build lean body mass, but a short (10-15 minute) workout of high intensity with bodyweight or resistance will build strength, expend more energy, and require more energy for post exercise oxygen consumption, therefor burn more fat than Occam's which is the type of exercise that is in used to gain weight/size by maximizing hypertrophy and minimizing energy expenditure.


justhamade wrote:High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) with resistance. This is the method I have been using and had great results with 10-15 minute workouts. Kettlebells/Crossfit are good for this although I find crossfit too random. The MCT http://www.maxcapacitytraining.com/ program I link to in my blog post is a good one and I am actually going to start doing that soon.


If you look at what MCT http://www.maxcapacitytraining.com/ is you will see it is strength building.
If you look at what CrossFit is (or read the chapter Ultraendurance II: Going from 5K to 50K in 12 Weeks—Phase II) you will see it is also strength building http://crossfit.com/

If you are having fat loss success by adding Occam's workouts the there is a good chance you will have more/faster success with HIIT workouts.

HIIT will also help with increasing cardio (VO2 max, anaerobic capacity, lactic acid threshold).

I apologize if anyone thought that my original post sounded like I was saying you should not add muscle or strength to lose fat.
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